tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post913217510810767304..comments2024-03-29T18:44:16.507+11:00Comments on Lazy Luddite Log: Parenting LicenceDanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12710148812664294219noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-71732047698527728182008-07-16T21:18:00.000+10:002008-07-16T21:18:00.000+10:00Interesting. Human rights of course apply to both...Interesting. Human rights of course apply to both adults and children but are sometimes implemented in different ways. And as you say enforcement will always be a challenge.<BR/><BR/>The news item you link to is an instance of enforcement working - the issues have been exposed and are getting addressed.<BR/><BR/>Notice how some of these problem families do not send children to school - there is one implementation problem for you if you utilised school as the venue for implanting those sterilisation things.<BR/><BR/>And I imagine it would be more problematic if sterilisation became the law. Then you would have conscientious objectors keeping their kids away from your schools, as well as the current minority of negligent parents.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12710148812664294219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-26406626911421671112008-06-24T12:42:00.000+10:002008-06-24T12:42:00.000+10:00I can't help but stir the pot.I'm not sure if it m...I can't help but <A HREF="http://www.theage.com.au/national/mum-charged-as-14-children-hospitalised-20080623-2vl0.html" REL="nofollow">stir the pot</A>.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure if it makes a difference, especially given the way such things never seem to be enforced, but could one cast the pro-licensing argument as a <I>human rights</I> issue?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12013933966986062184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-77078173166308356552008-06-11T22:34:00.000+10:002008-06-11T22:34:00.000+10:00I will let Vivienne make her own response. All I ...I will let Vivienne make her own response. All I will say for now is this: Do you really want the ability to meet bureaucratic requirements to be something that is <EM>selected for</EM> in future generations? What sort of human race would we become? (-8}Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12710148812664294219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-40454321774682269012008-06-06T10:31:00.000+10:002008-06-06T10:31:00.000+10:00Responding to Vivienne's comment:Having to qualify...Responding to Vivienne's comment:<BR/><BR/>Having to qualify for child benefits by being certified as a competent parent is a great disincentive to incompetent parents, but potentially disastrous for the child.<BR/><BR/>The children most likely to suffer from terrible parenting are also the most likely to be accidental, unplanned, and born of people who would never be motivated to <I>attempt</I> this kind of test.<BR/><BR/>Instead, I am increasingly convinced that the solution needs to be an enforced-by-default impediment, rather than a voluntary 'test' with potentially arbitrary/political/stupid criteria.<BR/><BR/>i.e. If one had the technological means, introducing compulsory pre-puberty contraceptive implants for both genders. The bureaucratic process to get one's implant disabled would need to be complex, tedious, long and irritating. This would ensure that any prospective parent had plenty of time to think about it, and was willing and able to make a distinct effort. Apart from that it need not entail <B>any</B> actual criteria.<BR/>Additional measures, like ensuring that new parents had their implants re-enabled after conception/birth, and/or making it illegal to remove or disable one's own implant, might be entirely unnecessary with a scheme like this.<BR/><BR/>Without as-yet-unavailable technology, this is still possible, just harder and somewhat less fair: Female contraceptive implants are already available <I>(Google for 'Implanon')</I> and good for 2.5 years. IMO this is still too hard for any government to implement with any hope of re-election at this stage, but it's a technological goal which is visibly getting nearer.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12013933966986062184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-42088753709034461642008-05-15T00:43:00.000+10:002008-05-15T00:43:00.000+10:00To JulieI think that most of us do have the capaci...<EM>To Julie</EM><BR/><BR/>I think that most of us do have the capacity to be excellent parents but one only ever meets such potential of one is given a chance to give it a go.<BR/><BR/>I like you prefer to say that a level of state support (which we have) can help in the development of parenting skills (and in minimising some of the pressure that go into family life) and this extends beyond childcare policy into other areas of life (since all impact on all).<BR/><BR/>On the manners front - as annoying as it can be I think we need to remember that rudeness is a personal decision rather than a crime and that possibly we can be too sensitive to it.<BR/><BR/>You are amazed that one needs to do all sorts of compliance in order to (say) get a car but can havea kid just-like-that. I think the historical perspective on this is that <EM>government predates cars but the ability to reproduce predates government!</EM> Sometimes we mistakenly act like (or wish that) our world was cut from whole cloth all in one moment rather than recognising that it is a constantly changing thing.<BR/><BR/><EM>To Lizzie</EM><BR/><BR/>Wow. Can I replace my conversational ramblings with your efficient and incisive writing? Remind me to always be on your side in an argument! Thanks for the comment.<BR/><BR/><EM>To Mouse</EM><BR/><BR/>There is way too much bureaucracy involved in the lives of those that wish to adopt (and plenty of orphans still in need parenting). Imagine putting that same bureaucracy on to <EM>everyone</EM>! <BR/><BR/>The state does have a specific interest in the case of orphans - it has responsibility for them specifically because they have lost their parents. So I can understand the existance of some kind of framework for ensuring that it hands its responsibility over to others. <BR/><BR/>But I think it is a mistake to assume that the state has responsibility for every facet of life. There are some things - many things - for which we should take responsibility. And you only ever take responsibility if you are given the oportunity to do so.<BR/><BR/><EM>To Thorne</EM><BR/><BR/>Do you mean "struggling to be succient"?<BR/><BR/>Interestingly the other topic in that pub converation was population control which is more the intent of the Chinese one-child policy. Now there are other motives behind that issue (e.g. environmental ones come into play) but still I am wary of overly-intrusive methods. It is hardly an accident that the nation that has implemented this policy is a one-party dictatorship. <BR/><BR/>Agree that basically "one is innocent until proven guilty" and that this applies to the ability to be a parent. There are cases in which that ability is demonstrably lacking and then (and only then) can society take action. It can also prevent such problems by providing the kind of support discussed.<BR/><BR/>Welfare can breed welfare dependence but to some extend it depends on how it is done. Naturally a lump sum payment like the baby bonus will be open to abuse. The provision of ever-present services is another matter entirely. And regular modest forms of income support fall into a grey area in between these two.<BR/><BR/>Yes we do restrict behaviour with all sorts of laws. But we have to be mindful what is necessary and what is useful. Some control goes too far. I would personally be wary even of your 'opt-into reproduction' suggestion but can see why you are looking for some kind of compromise position.<BR/><BR/><EM>To Vivienne</EM><BR/><BR/>I am even a bit wary of the parenting certificate concept if it becomes any kind of precondition to accessing ones entitlements. It may still be a worthwhile thing to have. As an analogy - none of the employers I have recently been contacting <EM>need</EM> be to have a first aid certificate to do the advertised job but it is looked on favourably in my resume.<BR/><BR/>I agree that the (potentially offensive) pop-culture terms I have used have different scopes and connotations. I suppose that is why I originally posted the message with a warning of 'offensive' content. It is an overstated thing - parents of any demographic can be good or bad parents according to current expectations of what parenting involves.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12710148812664294219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-76215936644399366912008-05-13T16:18:00.000+10:002008-05-13T16:18:00.000+10:00Thorin, when you wrote"Agree that support for pare...Thorin, when you wrote<BR/><BR/>"Agree that support for parents could be better, but point out: This is *already* a form of welfare which fosters dependance and is demonstrably abused, in some cases."<BR/><BR/>--- do you mean that, as a form of "welfare" it is intriniscally not good? <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure how the methods we have (at the moment, in Australia) for supporting parents can be abused. (I'm not talking about cash payments like the stupid baby bonus, but human things like maternity leave, child health workers etc). Do you really have documentation of this, or are we talking about different kinds of support?jchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14885293980380133194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-68711946766004640252008-05-13T14:08:00.000+10:002008-05-13T14:08:00.000+10:00Daniel, I agree with you that a "Parenting licence...Daniel, <BR/><BR/>I agree with you that a "Parenting licence", as a precondition for having children, is a dangerous thing to try to implement. I also agree with Thorne though, that the "right" to have children is a right that can be lost, due to extreme bad behaviour, such as abuse of one's children. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps a "Parenting certificate", could be considered, as a pre-condition for accessing government benefits. A parent would need to complete a test covering issues such as how to care for a baby, where to get help where needed etc. A course could be made available to those who need it to pass the test.<BR/><BR/>Just a note: I strongly disagree that "bogan" is a sysnonym for "white trash". "White trash" is a very nasty term, indicating contempt. "Bogan" is more a description of a working class subculture, involving particular styles of dress and musical and sporting taste. I don't know that Australia has a direct equivalent to the term "White trash". Maybe "scroat"?vcollinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00125678748213020490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-46803445562229870272008-05-12T15:28:00.000+10:002008-05-12T15:28:00.000+10:00Struggling to be terse...Controlling reproductive ...Struggling to be terse...<BR/><BR/>Controlling reproductive rights is dangerous, no matter how careful. See China's one-child policy, backlash and repercussions thereof.<BR/><BR/>Even so, some cases *clearly* justify it: See Mr Fritzl of Austria and family.<BR/><BR/>Suggest instead that one might *lose* one's inherent right to reproduce through criminal acts and/or severe mental illness, to be reinstated on completion of suitable gauntlet of psych assessment.<BR/><BR/>Agree that support for parents could be better, but point out: This is *already* a form of welfare which fosters dependance and is demonstrably abused, in some cases.<BR/><BR/>More could be done to ensure that reproduction is thought-out and deliberate: compulsory 'implanon'-style implanted contraception, for both genders (as yet not 100% viable, but clearly coming) would make fertility an 'opt-in' thing.<BR/><BR/>Bottom line: Restricting reproduction is harmful/arrogant/dangerous, but so is any criminal justice system. We accept the imperfect criminal justice system because the alternative is unthinkable. I would posit that extremely negligent/abusive parenting is unthinkable, meriting an equivalent response.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12013933966986062184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-85334844821894411202008-05-10T16:52:00.000+10:002008-05-10T16:52:00.000+10:00If that is the case, then why do families have to ...If that is the case, then why do families have to go through checks to adopt a child?<BR/><BR/>A family wanting to adopt has to "complete a detailed application, which involves police checks, medical checks, a working-with-children check and other documentation. References will be required. If you're in a de facto relationship, documentary evidence will also be required."<BR/><BR/>They have to attend "training sessions" before they can adopt.<BR/><BR/>A social worker has to meet with them a number of times to assess them and they have to go up before a committee to show they are capable.<BR/><BR/>http://www.office-for-children.vic.gov.au/adoption-permanent-care/applying_to_adopt_and_infant_in_victoria<BR/><BR/>Why is it that anyone can get pregnant and carry the child to term, but people have to go through all this to adopt? Why can't they just give their name and have the next unwanted kid sent to them? It's effectively the same.<BR/><BR/>There should be some consistency. If a couple wouldn't be good enough to adopt, then they shouldn't be good enough to conceive and have one that is biologically their own.Quincy Quincettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05958720030354418138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-20373594534737780402008-05-10T00:18:00.000+10:002008-05-10T00:18:00.000+10:00RE: Eugenics: The idea of a parenting licence to r...RE: Eugenics: The idea of a parenting licence to reduce boganism reflects an old paradigm: that social problems are caused by problem people, and that if you remove those people, the problem will disappear. However, these days we prefer to think of social problems as due to social <I>conditions</I>; so if you remove some people, others will take their place, provided the same conditions hold. The most effective way to reduce boganism would be to alter the social conditions that make boganism a necessary and/or viable lifestyle. Eugenics is not a solution.<BR/><BR/>The other argument for the parenting license boils down to a 'protect the children' stance - a parenting license could prevent totally inadequate parents from reproducing. You've mentioned the two big problems with this: <BR/><BR/>1) Enforcement. There is no foolproof, reversible contraceptive that the entire population can tolerate. If people breed and then fail to qualify for a license, it'd be no better than the systems we currently have for dealing with negligent parents (foster care, court-ordered parenting classes, etc.).<BR/><BR/>2) Content. Who decides what skills all parents should have, or what constitutes good parenting? Good parenting varies according to culture, and the child's personality. Basic parenting skills (like the ability to provide food, affection and a safe environment) might be more universal, but even they vary considerably as the child grows up. How the hell do you test for all that? How do you do it without discriminating against particular cultural groups - in other words, sneaking in eugenics under the cover of 'protecting the children'?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10019363830839475943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19268887.post-10566666147625372332008-05-09T15:52:00.000+10:002008-05-09T15:52:00.000+10:00Dear Daniel,I think you are on the right track wit...Dear Daniel,<BR/><BR/>I think you are on the right track with this. <BR/><BR/>The "parenting license" is a bit of an authoritarian response, like an attempt at punishing people for boganinity, sort of "you're a dickhead, so you don't get to have kids". <BR/><BR/>I think most people have the capability to be excellent parents, and most parents really do want the best for their kids. <BR/><BR/>Isn't it the case that early intervention programs--- things that *help* parents, like intensive visits by child health nurses in the first couple of months, help with parenting skills, high-quality childcare etc etc have been shown to be (more than) cost effective (in terms of the intergenerational unemployment you talk about, and other similar measures eg teenage pregnancy, school attendance).<BR/><BR/>(I'm not sure if economists/sociologists have measure the effect on manners, but I agree that a eugenics program aimed at improving the level of manners would be both unethical and unscientific. )<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I did feel very amazed that, given the amount of paper work and stuff one needs to get a car or a dog or build a shed, one can just go ahead and have a baby, just like that! Incredible. <BR/><BR/>I think this points to the impractibility of the parenting licence idea--- if it was possible, it would already be with us.<BR/><BR/>Hope you're well,<BR/><BR/>Julie.jchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14885293980380133194noreply@blogger.com